07 Aug 2014 
#98 Carrier thinks Jesus' passion was drawn from another Jesus featured in Josephus' Wars.

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Here is the passage about Jesus ben Ananias in Josephus' Wars 6, 5, 3:

"But, what is still more terrible, there was one Jesus, the son of Ananus, a plebeian and a husbandman, who, four years before the war began, and at a time when the city was in very great peace and prosperity, came to that feast whereon it is our custom for every one to make tabernacles to God in the temple, began on a sudden to cry aloud, "A voice from the east, a voice from the west, a voice from the four winds, a voice against Jerusalem and the holy house, a voice against the bridegrooms and the brides, and a voice against this whole people!" This was his cry, as he went about by day and by night, in all the lanes of the city.
However, certain of the most eminent among the populace had great indignation at this dire cry of his, and took up the man, and gave him a great number of severe stripes; yet did not he either say any thing for himself, or any thing peculiar to those that chastised him, but still went on with the same words which he cried before. Hereupon our rulers, supposing, as the case proved to be, that this was a sort of divine fury in the man, brought him to the Roman procurator, where he was whipped till his bones were laid bare; yet he did not make any supplication for himself, nor shed any tears, but turning his voice to the most lamentable tone possible, at every stroke of the whip his answer was, "Woe, woe to Jerusalem!" And when Albinus (for he was then our procurator) asked him, Who he was? and whence he came? and why he uttered such words? he made no manner of reply to what he said, but still did not leave off his melancholy ditty, till Albinus took him to be a madman, and dismissed him.
Now, during all the time that passed before the war began, this man did not go near any of the citizens, nor was seen by them while he said so; but he every day uttered these lamentable words, as if it were his premeditated vow, "Woe, woe to Jerusalem!" Nor did he give ill words to any of those that beat him every day, nor good words to those that gave him food; but this was his reply to all men, and indeed no other than a melancholy presage of what was to come. This cry of his was the loudest at the festivals; and he continued this ditty for seven years and five months, without growing hoarse, or being tired therewith, until the very time that he saw his presage in earnest fulfilled in our siege, when it ceased; for as he was going round upon the wall, he cried out with his utmost force, "Woe, woe to the city again, and to the people, and to the holy house!" And just as he added at the last, "Woe, woe to myself also!" there came a stone out of one of the engines, and smote him, and killed him immediately; and as he was uttering the very same presages he gave up the ghost."


Carrier's wild theory: Jesus ben Ananias as the model for Jesus of Nazareth's Passover narrative:

"Indeed, even how Mark decides to construct the sequence of the Passo­ver narrative appears to be based on the tale of another Jesus: Jesus ben Ananias, the 'Jesus of Jerusalem', an insane prophet active in the 60s ce who is then killed in the siege of Jerusalem (roughly in the year 70). His story is told by Josephus in the Jewish War, and unless Josephus invented him, his narrative must have been famous, famous enough for Josephus to know of it, and thus famous enough for Mark to know of it, too, and make use of it to model the tale of his own Jesus. Or if Josephus invented the tale, then Mark evidently used Josephus as a source. Because the parallels are too numerous to be at all probable as a coincidence. Some Mark does derive from elsewhere (or matches from elsewhere to a double purpose), but the overall scheme of the story in Josephus matches Mark too closely to believe that Mark just came up with the exact same scheme indepen­dently. And since it's not believable that Josephus invented a new story using Mark, we must conclude Mark invented his story using Josephus—or the same tale known to Josephus.

It would appear this story inspired the general outline of Mark's entire Passover narrative. There are at least twenty significant parallels (and one reversal):
 
[I found a few inaccuracies (some major, some minor) in that list: see my comments]

1. Both are named Jesus.
[Jesus was a common name then. Next, I'll  abbreviate as such:  Jesus, son of Ananias => JA; for Jesus Christ => JC]

2. Both come to Jerusalem during a major religious festival.
[yes, but different ones. And going to Jerusalem for a festival was the main reason why so many Jews visited that city]

3. Both entered the temple area to rant against the temple.
[Actually JA is never said to enter the temple. His ranting is "in all the lanes of the city"(for years). And according to the gospels, JC did little ranting against the temple]

4. During which both quote the same chapter of Jeremiah.
[but not the same passage]

5. Both then preach daily in the temple.
[JA is not said to preach in the temple]

6. Both declared "woe' unto Judea or the Jews.
[For JC, during the Passion in Jerusalem: never in Luke's & John's gospels]

7. Both predict the temple will be destroyed.
["Mark" had to get JC to predict that if the gospel was written right after the fall of Jerusalem]

8. Both are for this reason arrested by the Jews.
[Not true for JC in the gospels: not arrested for any "woe" diatribes]

9. Both are accused of speaking against the temple.
 
10. Neither makes any defense of himself against the charges

11. Both are beaten by the Jews.
[only in Luke's gospel for JC]

12. Then both are taken to the Roman governor.

13. Both are interrogated by the Roman governor.
[rather very predictable after point 12.]

14. During which both are asked to identify themselves.
[of course!]

15. And yet again neither says anything in his defense.

16. Both are then beaten by the Romans.
[not in Luke's gospel]

17. In both cases the Roman governor decides he should release him.
 
18. ... but doesn't (Mark):... but does (JW).

19. Both are finally killed by the Romans (in Mark, by execution: in the JW. by artillery).
[killed very differently]

20. Both utter a lament for themselves immediately before they die.
[only in Mark's & Matthew's gospels]
 
But then, who is going to think Kennedy was drawn from Lincoln, despite all the parallels:
From this webpage:

Abraham Lincoln was elected to Congress in 1846.
John F. Kennedy was elected to Congress in 1946.
 
Abraham Lincoln was elected President in 1860.
John F. Kennedy was elected President in 1960.
 
The names Lincoln and Kennedy each contain seven letters.
 
Both were particularly concerned with civil rights.
 
Both wives lost their children while living in the White House.
 
Both Presidents were shot on a Friday.
 
Both were shot in the head.
 
Lincoln's secretary, Kennedy, warned him not to go to the theatre.
 
Kennedy's secretary, Lincoln, warned him not to go to Dallas.
 
Both were assassinated by Southerners.
 
Both were succeeded by Southerners.
 
Both successors were named Johnson.
 
Andrew Johnson, who succeeded Lincoln, was born in 1808.
 
Lyndon Johnson, who succeeded Kennedy, was born in 1908.
 
John Wilkes Booth was born in 1839.
Lee Harvey Oswald was born in 1939.
 
Both assassins were known by their three names.
 
Both names are comprised of fifteen letters
 
Booth ran from the theater and was caught in a warehouse.
 
Oswald ran from a warehouse and was caught in a theater.
 
Booth and Oswald were assassinated before their trials.
 
A month before Lincoln was assassinated he was in Monroe, Maryland.
A month before Kennedy was assassinated he was in Marilyn Monroe.

Cordially, Bernard

Tags: {Carrier} {Carrier's OHJ} {Josephus} {mythicism}
Your comment: please copy "post #98" (to be pasted in your reply) and then click on "New Comment".
Comment from: Kunigunde Kreuzerin

"A month before Lincoln was assassinated he was in Monroe, Maryland.
A month before Kennedy was assassinated he was in Marilyn Monroe."
lol ;-)
2014-07-24